SPEAKER_02 0:00

I always tell the story that I did two deals in my first two weeks. Right, okay. I thought, wow, this job's easy. You need people that understand people, that can talk to people and pull out certain strands, certain problems, certain characteristics that make someone good.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Well, I think it's it's maybe the worst part about the job, right? Is that ultimately it's all on you. You just gotta turn up and put on a brave face every day. Yeah. And not transmit any of that anxiety to the group, to the team.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

I think at one point it kind of fell through. Yeah, yeah. And then I was like, I stakes it. I said to Tim Cook, like, I love this. This is I actually feel alive.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

This episode is proudly sponsored by River, the conversational intelligence platform built specifically for recruitment and staffing businesses. Recruitment firms generate huge amounts of valuable information every day through client calls, candidate interviews, vacancy briefings, and business development conversations. The challenge is that most of that information never makes it into systems, processes, or decision making. River captures, transcribes and analyzes every conversation automatically, transforming unstructured discussions into actionable intelligence for recruiters, managers, and business leaders. Whether that's improving CRM hygiene, generating candidate and client summaries, identifying commercial opportunities, coaching, or uncovering trends across the business, River helps staffing companies get more from every conversation they have. Unlike generic AI note-taking tools, River is built specifically for the recruitment industry with workflows, automations, and insights designed around the way recruiters actually work.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

If you'd like to see how leading staffing businesses are using a conversational intelligence to gain a competitive advantage, visit river.ai and book a demo today.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Today on recruiting alchemy, I'm joined by David Bloxham, CEO of GCS, a business he's grown to more than 100 people and more than 60 million in turnover, now part of the Engage group. David has spent the majority of his career in IT recruitment and has got a refreshingly honest take on it. As he puts it himself, it's always been something of a dark art. You can place hundreds of brilliant technologists, but still never be completely sure of the technology yourself. He is now deeply involved in the AI and recruitment conversation through the Thames Valley AI hub, and he's no stranger to this format himself either. I think he's a hundred plus episodes into his own podcast. He's told me very plainly he's no recruitment superhero. He's made plenty of mistakes but wangled his way through. And that's exactly the kind of cando we're looking for on this show. David, welcome. Hi. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for coming. Um it is a it's the first proper rainy day of the of the autumn. Horrible. Horrible. Well, it's horrible. I thought it was quite refreshing.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

It was it's good to see that it does remember how to do it. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

It is hammering down out there. So thanks for making the effort in in the uh yeah, in the the quintessentially British autumn weather. Fantastic. Um we don't know each other at all, really. We've never crossed paths, I don't think.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

We are a hinterview customer. Yes, you were. We we like them.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Yeah, that's it. Now River. Uh now river. Now river, which we'll we can talk about later. Um, but you are a well-known figure in the industry. Thank you. Um, you've been at the helm of a very successful business for a long time now, through a lot of ups and downs. It's been a challenging decade for for for everyone in this space. So I'm really excited to get to know a bit more about that and and hear a bit about your journey. Um obviously you've seen a lot, an MBO and acquisition by or and and acquisition by um a very successful um recruitment holding group, the engaged group. So I'm really excited to unpack a bit of that. But we start every show with the same format. Sure. Um, the two beginnings. The first beginning is the origin story. But I have to ask you, Bloxham. Yeah. I've I don't think I've ever met another Bloxham. Is it is it an uncommon surname?

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Uh I you don't meet a lot of Bloxhams. Yes. It's impossible to spell. Right. So I always have to say my surname again. Genetically, yeah, yeah. Um it's a village in it's a village in Oxfordshire. Right, okay. Called Bloxham. Got it. Um that's where the that's where the the genesis of probably was a suspect. Who knows? I mean, yeah, I was looking up the other day. I think I've for quite a long time I've said, yeah, one day my my great-great great great grandfather was Duke of Bloxham, but I don't think that's actually true. I think it's just named for people from Bloxham. But it's a great story. It's a great story, but uh uh I went to I live in Reading and I went to um uh my my daughter and I got Reading season tickets, so we went to see very glamorous Reading Blackpool. And uh shout out, there was a Tom Bloxham, which is actually my brother's name, and he was the left winger and set up a goal for Blackpool. Amazing. So I looked at it at the end on BBC, I was like, Well, that's another Bloxham. You get very when you're a Bloxham, you get very excited to see another Bloxham.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

When I'm a Simpson and we're there's plenty of looks, mate, yeah, loads, mate, loads, absolutely. Um yeah, uh well it's it's nice to meet a fellow sufferer of low league football. I'm a home of the way Port Vale fan, mate, and it's uh yeah, and it's um and I've been to Reading many, many times. It's uh last season I was there, it was nil-nil. I thought I don't know why, but no, that's a lie. We lost one nil. Yeah, yeah, it's quite a strange stadium than the Reading Stadium. It's kind of it's sort of like a hotel out of town.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

It's made to for it to be a bigger team, but they never get to be a bigger team. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I will I will admit that while I take my daughter to Reading, because I live two minutes, I'm also an Arsenal fan. Right, that's a property. I mean, that's like that's that yeah, yeah. I have the glory through that sometimes, yeah. But um yeah, that's real football. That's it, mate. I respect people when I see like the Port Vale fans on a on a Tuesday evening come all the way, and that's proper passion, isn't it? Hard, mate, hard.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

I mean, you know, we're rock bottom of League Two as at the time we're writing, and it's um it's a difficult, it's a difficult journey. But you don't get to choose your football team, do you? It's it's it's it's it's one of those things. Um, so uh originally from Readin?

SPEAKER_02 6:27

No, I come from I was born in Southampton. Um I my dad was in biochemistry. Okay, so he was quite successful in that. So we moved around a bit. I lived in Seattle, Barcelona. Oh, wow. So very glamorous places, but I also grew up in Stevenage in Hertfordshire, which isn't so glamorous. Right. So that's kind of where I kind of call home. Yes. And I went to Readin uh to university in '92 to do French and English, which I've never really used since I graduated. And uh here I am as an IT recruiter.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Well, exactly. You know, it's it takes it takes all sorts, doesn't it? Yeah, that's right. In our in our line of work. Um, so Reading University Modern Languages or some or French and English. Um what were you thinking? What was the plan? Was there a grand ambition?

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Did you want to go and be a I was quite good at it. Um randomly. Did it run the good languages? Like my mum, I no, basically I'm just quite good at languages. Like I can speak Spanish, right? I can speak French from when I lived in Barcelona. Yeah. Um, the more beers I have, the better my Spanish and French gets. Yeah. Um, we went for a meeting. Um, I basically got had a couple of meetings in France the other day with a French guy on our on our team, and I said, from the moment we get on the train, the Eurostar, to the moment we get back, we're only going to speak French. Right, okay. And uh I was just amazed me sometimes how it's in it's in your head. Yeah. Like even if I didn't speak it now, I could, and I was doing business meetings and stuff like that in French. I was like, wow, this is amazing. Yeah. Where is where's this all coming from? I think he was amazed as well. Yeah, yeah, equally amazed, yeah. But um, but no, it's um it's something I enjoyed. There was a literature element to it, which quite enjoyed reading books, that sort of thing. I'm quite I'm quite into that kind of you know, academic learning, etc. etc. But I never really wanted to be a teacher, right? Which is kind of where you come from from being doing French and English. Yeah, so I had to kind of fall back on my other kind of skill, which is kind of communication, yeah, you know, ambition, that sort of thing. And that's where sales came in. So I went for a few sales interviews and got a recruitment job.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yeah, and and and I guess sorry, before we move on, have you managed to pass that joy of languages to any of your offspring? Absolutely not. Oh, it's so frustrating, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 8:48

No, I know. Um I've tried, I've tried many times.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

I am um I'm I'm married to a Swedish lady. Oh, okay, and um, and she talks exclusively to our children in Swedish, and they refuse to respond. They understand everything she says. Oh no, and they respond only in English, it drives it absolutely nuts, mate, honestly. Yeah, um, yeah, I was like, in your in years to come, you will be grateful for this. It's an amazing skill to it really is, and a free gift, right? A free gift, you know. But uh yeah, it's um yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

One of the things I've always thought on the kind of recruitment side is obviously that learning those languages and understanding that, you know, we've I think we've both worked in IT. It's like a language to learn as well, isn't it? There is no, I mean I'm talking about coding, but just the words that they use and how you pick it up, and you're not scared of these acronyms and things, you just like try and work it out. So I've always felt that that kind of learning different patterns of speech, languages, different types of cultures is has been useful in a recruitment career.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

And look, and I think it's a superpower, right? If you're good at it, then you enjoy it. I think it's it's an unparalleled skill, right? It's you know, it's it's to be really good at it, and I'm not suggesting I am, but to be really good at it, I think is you know, is is something that can help you in all aspects of your life. Yeah. Um, so you get into IT recruitment um more by accident than by design, but but I guess this was probably coincided with the sort of explosion of the Thames Valley Valley corridor, right? There was a period of time where I remember I got into recruitment and I had no idea all of these huge American companies had opened shop in Reading, so there's Oracle and others, Microsoft and others. And Bodafone were there. That's right, yeah. So was that part of your apprenticeship in technology recruitment? Were you working that kind of path?

SPEAKER_02 10:36

So, you know, Reading is it still is like a you know very rich town with lots of big businesses there, but at the time, yeah, most of the big American companies had moved to Reading and were setting up shop. We didn't work with them so much because they had their own kind of internal teams, but there was a lot of you know teams supplying into companies supplying into that very big ecosystem, yeah, and talent being drawn there for that reason. Talent there, and and obviously it's near London, so it's easier to kind of do business in London. But no, it's a very exciting time. I think you know, joining recruitment in the the late 90s before most of the rules and most of the the kind of the changes came in that that maybe professionalized, but certainly put a lot more kind of stages and more difficulty in supplying, you know. Yeah, so for me, you know, it started off very simple. You just pick the phone up, make some calls, find some jobs, yeah, fill some jobs, you know. It's um, and that's what I really loved about it. I love the kind of simplicity of it, which even though I've said there's a lot more complications now in the way it works, in the end, you're kind of matching people, and yeah, that's what I really enjoy. Like you mentioned about the dark arts, but I love that game of yeah, yeah, you know, finding the match, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Yeah, it's it's really interesting actually. Um, because I've been selling software for for some years now, uh two recruiters, albeit, but you know, I I I always found that it's great that the software can't say no, right? That's one of the the pluses. But but the the down, not the downside, but the alternative, the other side of that is you don't get that kind of like sense of like fit joining a mix like solving a puzzle. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like the point it's like it's like finding you know, when you find doing a jigsaw and you search for ages and you finally find the bit that fits, yeah, and there's something incredibly satisfying about plugging it in.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

I've always felt like that about recruitment, like it was there was a moment I was like, ah, that feels really satisfying.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Yeah, and and and you know, those those elements of matchmaking, those elements of really understanding someone and then understanding where they can fit. Yeah, that's that's always for me been the thing like people say to me, I've been in this, I've been in this industry for 30 years in October 2026, right? It's 30 years. Um and it's and people say to me, Well, how how have you continued doing this? You know, it's even with the same company most of the time. And every no day is boring, no day is dull, every day is different, yeah. Some days are terrible, some days are fantastic, you know, but you're never bored. Yeah. Um, I always tell a story I used to work in Tesco's, like, and I was as when I was young, I was always strangely people said, What do you want to do when you grow up? Because I was like, quite like to run a supermarket. I don't know what that tells says about me, but I kind of quite like the idea of this massive great place, and I was in charge. So I worked for a supermarket for for some times on the deli, which is one of the worst places to work.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

I always it's I think I had quite a fancy of the deli initially.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

No, you don't. When you're doing like garlic sausage and stuff, it's the worst. It's the worst, and particularly if they kind of put you on the fish as well, they split you into the fish. But anyway, I was hated it so much. And the one thing I hated about it is I was basically clockwatching all the time, right? Which I hate doing, but I think everyone's done it in jobs they don't like, right? Okay, so I just never ever wanted to do where I do a job where I clockwatched. Right. And we I say this to people sometimes when I'm training them, like you will never clockwatch in recruitment. Yeah. Because it's always stuff happening, and you can make things happen, and you're never going to be bored. And to me, that's the thing that's kept me going over 30 years, like it's not boring.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Yeah. I remember far from boring. The opposite, far from boring, good and bad. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, I remember, you know, you know, when you're in when you're billing and you're having a you're having a hot streak, yeah, and you just everything turns to gold. Yeah. And you you look at the phone and it's five o'clock, and you're like, oh my god, I've got so much more I want to do, need to do. Um, and exactly like that, sometimes you'd be like, I want the day to go on longer because I feel like I've just I'm just printing money right now, you know. And it's you know, it doesn't always always feel like that.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

But no, well that's what you said earlier about ups and downs, you know, you do get those great streaks, you do get those, you know, times and other things going your way, and that can be economic, that's just be you. But yeah, you know, the thing I always had to work with was I'm quite a bad loser. Right. I'm quite passionate. So when things weren't going my way, I had to kind of work quite hard to kind of get myself back in the mind frame of everything's going my way. Yeah, yeah. I I was got kind of quite in the doldrums when it's not going your way. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah, I think um I think you definitely like you, you know, there's there's many qualities that make a good recruiter, but I think the ability to dig yourself out of a hole of funk is right up there because if you've if you've not got that in you, you're gonna struggle.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

No, that's right. And it's and it was intro going back to what you said about uh software and basically it not saying no, but what you know about a candidate is you can speak to any candidate or any client and you can kind of work out where could I put you? Yeah, you know, where's the opportunity here, and how can I how can I make this happen?

SPEAKER_01 15:54

And it it was um it's remarkable, and I'm I'm sure you've hired hundreds, thousands of people over the years. And I always say to my wife, I was like, it's very difficult. You get someone who's got a first class degree and this and that, and whatever, and you they just don't they don't have what it's some whatever it is, it's the angles, it might be like looking at the matrix, right? Exactly, but you just see the world in a certain way, and then you get other people who you know maybe they haven't got a GCSE to you know to bring together and but they've got it, whatever it is, and and we've I don't think I've ever really codified it or unlocked it, but I I couldn't agree more, you know. Those yeah, seeing the angles, understanding the you know, whether it's uh just a way of thinking rather than uh you know an intelligence level.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

I was just I was just having a call with a candidate that's been introduced to me, and he was talking about how he's hiring, and every single CV looks exactly the same, yeah. Which is obviously all built in clawed or whatever is what you said, they're all built in clawed. So I said, Well, that's where it's where we come in. Yeah, you know, we're the ones that understand the human beings, we're the ones that can explain this person because in the end, you're gonna receive 10 perfect CVs, they're all gonna be the same, yeah. If particularly if they're all written by the same AI, yeah. Um, how are you ever gonna like work out whether this guy's better than that guy? You know, it's impossible. So you need people that understand people that can talk to people and and pull out certain strands, certain problems, certain characteristics that make someone good.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Exactly. And and I, you know, we were we had I was talking to someone the other day, and I said, look, the the problem with the best person for the job is uh is the person who wants the job, who can do the job, but they want the job, they want to accept the job, and they want to try really hard at the job. And and and and if you you know, I think the worst thing that happened to recruitment was the easy apply button on LinkedIn. So but if you combine the easy apply button in the AI generated CV, you stick an ad on, a company sticks an ad on and they've got 3,000 applications. I mean, where do you even begin? You know, it's impossible.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

I've got quite a funny story about that because I we and we'll talk about this more, but we moved more into the kind of consultancy division, we've got this division called GCS Project Solutions, but I um I put an advert out for a head of division for a statement of work business, right? So I thought, sorry, I'm just I'm just gonna advertise it myself and do the do the thing. Old school, yeah, old school. Yeah, just yeah. So I sponsored the ad and that sort of stuff. I had 305 applications for my job, you know. Now, interestingly, some of these were so senior, yeah. Like VPs of JP Morgan, heads of practice for Cap Gemini, yeah, you know, really, really senior people. Now, having had 30 years experience, I I loved basically declining them to say sorry, haven't got enough recruitment experience. You've been you've been you've been pying me off for years, and now this is it. This is like I mean, we've found a fantastic person, but it's actually a really, really good like universe and network of people. Like, I've used it again, I've kind of gone back through people to say, Oh, hi, I work good for this job, but I've actually got a real job for a real job. Yeah, but I mean you could tell that this yeah, basically extremely, extremely senior person in JP Morgan have not applied for this job. And and never would.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

And and it's surely only gonna get worse with these your you know, your agent is out there applying. You when I say agent, your digital agent. Yeah, it's just totally yeah, yeah. So Grayson Computer Services. Yes. Um how did you know that? Wow, what can I say? Uh or or or now GCS. Um, yeah, why did you join them? How did you how did you find them? Did they find you? Did you find them? Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

So Grayson Computer Services, the the the story I always tell because it was GCS, and usually every new person at some point says, Where'd you GCS? Yeah. So basically we started in '91 by a guy called Chris Bartlett and a guy called Martin Smith. Okay. I think it was in Fulham originally, and they moved to the not John Grayson. No, but they hated their surnames, or they didn't hate their surnames, they didn't think it sounded very good. Right. So they basically stole a surname of a guy, so it's like Grayson, they like that surname. They knew a guy called Grayson, so they did that. When I joined, it was uh kind of the the the tongue twister, Grayson Computer Services, Computer Recruitment Services. So quite quickly it was like GCS. Um I joined in '96. Okay. Um small business at the time. Yeah, I was I I always say third employee, I was probably about the fifth, right? But I was the the first one that stuck. Right. Um, and it's really exciting times. We're in a tiny little office, yeah, you know, in Reading. In Reading. I mean, the the story I always tell is that I had two job offers. One was from a printer company paying me 16 grand. Um and it was like a big Japanese firm, and one was from this firm paying me 10 grand in 96. Um and I basically took the job because the guy Chris Butler is very charismatic, kind of like you know, the guy that taught me a lot about recruitment. We basically had a chat for about 10 minutes about music. We're both big music fans, and um I was like, Yeah, he sounds cool. Yeah, I still didn't really when I turned up on day one, I still didn't really know what the job was, didn't really know anything about the job, but I just thought he seemed cool. Yeah, so yeah, that's why I'll take it started.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Yeah, but I think that I think that gut feel instinct goes a long way, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Yeah, I've I felt that you know it would be a job that would be like go back to boring, that it would be fun, that I looked at the kind of commission scheme, and what I liked about it is I didn't really understand the business model, but I was like, So if I do more and more, I can earn more and more. You know, there doesn't seem to be any cap on this. Yeah. Um, and I didn't really need to know anything about IT, which I Definitely didn't at that point, but I kind of obviously in my mind I knew that the internet, email, PC, all these things were happening, and probably it was probably a good time to kind of get involved.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

So here I am. So you probably had to your first challenge was navigating dot com. No, nine, no, um, Y2K.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Y2K. That was quite good for us because obviously there was bringing loads of people out of like mainframe retirement thing. I mean, I think the thing you realize is like, yeah, there's always ups and downs, aren't there? You know, economy drives recruitment, like you mentioned.com boom and bus, 9-11, yeah, you know, credit crunch, all these sort of things. You know, it's it's a cyclical thing, isn't it? Yeah, you know. I think you mentioned there in the 2020s, it does seem like it's a cyclical thing that has been a pretty much a cycle of crap.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

It's like rather than being a five-year cycle, it's just like a one-year cycle. I have the good year, good year. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, I I was, you know, we'll we'll get onto this in a minute, but um, you know, I interview founders and CEOs on this show a lot, well, almost exclusively, and um it's been hard, you know, it's been hard. You know, between COVID and then I think what's been an incredibly weird time, both politically and economically, and with the overhang of AI. But you know, whisper it quietly, there are seeds of confidence out there, great chutes of confidence, and everyone seems to be saying, Well, actually, you know, I think people have come to the conclusion that AI is likely to drive just a new type of demand.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Um, and and and as long as you're willing to take a chance and do things differently, then the world is is incredibly exciting. But we'll we'll come on to that. So GTS, you were you any good? Did you take it quickly?

SPEAKER_02 23:53

Um, I always tell the story that I did two deals in my first two weeks. Right, okay. So I thought, wow, this job's easy. Yeah, exactly. It was really lucky. Yeah, I called a guy, he needed someone, I found someone. Yeah, classic, found out he didn't take another offer, called that place, yeah, found another one, so filled two. I thought I was like, wow, I'm amazing at this job. And then I didn't do another deal. I didn't do another deal for another three months. Yeah, yeah. I'm rubbish at this. Yeah, I'm on death row. No, I was um I worked in embedded software engineering on contract. Embedded C. Yeah, embedded C. GSM, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Cambridge was a big hotspot for that.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Right, yeah, yeah. Um so it was mostly mobile phone development and that sort of thing, you know, very much within that. Um, so really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

I really exploding and demand, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:41

The what thing I liked about it was it's quite long-term contracts, really interesting people, yeah, really geeky but interesting people, and you could make a name for yourself. And I think that's really important within recruitment is to to own a market, to for people to kind of trust you that you know what you're about. Yeah, um, and to work from a kind of small pot, small cohort of people, yeah. That you write, okay, you've given me this requirement. Yeah, I know candidate A and candidate B, they they're just right for you. Yeah, that's what I believe clients want. That's kind of what candidates want. It's kind of like can you find me a project? Yeah, I've got this project, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I felt that I could own that quite well. Um, and I found it quite interesting, like what they were developing. You know, they were developing you know, mobile phones with Nokia and Ericsson. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that was exploding as well. So I like that sort of thing. And I I think it's important. One of the things I talk about a lot in recruitment is passion. Yeah, you know, that's something that I interview a lot for. It's like, is this person does this person seem passionate about stuff? Yeah, yeah, you know. Um, and if you ask them about their passion and it's boring, yeah, like even if their passion is really exciting, like hang riding or something, but they're boring about it, I just know you're not gonna be right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you've got to be passionate about your candidates and your clients, and yeah, so I was I felt passionate about it. So yeah, I got up to 35 contractors, built millions of pounds, blah, blah, blah. What was it was?

SPEAKER_01 26:13

I mean, I don't know much about your upbringing, was it your first taste of really good money?

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Yeah, uh uh for me personally, yeah. Well, didn't I grow up with a silver spoon, but I didn't grow up poor. Yeah, but um, yeah, I mean, as there's a point where me and my wife laugh, but there's a point where I was just you know, I was earning so much money and it never never runs out. And I was like kind of 24, 25 years old. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

That was the I remember um, you know, somebody once said I worked for a company and and and at the time we had um an Amsterdam division that was just like crazy money, and yeah, and basically the you know the the joke was that there's you know there's only two ways to make real money in Amsterdam, it's either to work for play for IAX Amsterdam or work for Huxley Associates, yeah. No, they were rolling around Amsterdam that they own the place, you know, you know, because they had so much money, you know. Um so you um are you then leave GCS for a four-year period and you did some other things. Yeah, why what yeah, tell me about that part of your career and what precipited what what prompted that and what was that that that section of the career?

SPEAKER_02 27:18

Well, I think that um obviously I joined when it was a small company, we'd we'd done well, grown, got on the fast track, won some awards, opened up some offices, etc. etc. Um, and I had kind of grown up, but like grown away from recruitment in some ways. Um, and I was operations director at the time. Um I think there was some sort of kind of you know element of political thing where you know you're the third in line, but there's two sh owners, so you kind of feel I'm always gonna be third in line. Yeah. Um, but I felt it was really important for me in my career to understand different areas, different places. Yeah, you know, I worked at Harvey Nash, I worked at Alexander Mann, yeah. Um which is, I guess, the opposite of the environment you were in, totally opposite corporates, and I learned so much about you know how to deal with big companies. You know, when you worked for AMS, I was kind of on site with Cap Gemini. Yeah. You understand the internal workings of how big companies recruit, yeah, which you don't see as a recruiter, you're only really seeing as an internal recruiter. Yeah. And you understand how you see kind of companies providing value, building bigger clients. Like, you know, when I worked to Harvey Nash, they had you know hundreds of contractors on the site of like News International. How do you get like so big within one company? It's because you have account managers, yeah, it's because you have people that focus on just that one business. Yeah, yeah. And that's I learned so much from those places. Yeah. Um about focus and penetration, focus, penetration, doing business at different levels, yeah. And I think that's really important in a career as well. Like, you know, how do you keep learning? You know, how do you keep pushing yourself forward? Um, and even at 52 now, I'm still kind of I'm still learning, still, you know, still listening to podcasts, out, going on training sessions, that sort of thing. It's really important to to keep yourself fresh, I think.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

And then obviously you return to the to the to the mothership, yes, back home again. Is that tell me about that because it's you see it, but it's not that common.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

Well, I talk about passion, you know. I I love GCS, like I love, I feel like it's something that I helped to begin. Yeah, um, it's something that a journey that we've been on over many years, and it I'm very passionate about it, you know. Um very passionate about people I work with, and what happened was I said there were two founders, one founder sold out to the other founder, right? So they're kind of like I could come back. Now I'm second in love. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it was um it was a really had you had you left on good terms and maintained good friends. Really good terms, yeah. I think um yeah, kept amicable, which I think is important, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Because you just never know what the world You never know what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

Yeah, you know, I bumped into the guy, I think I was watching my kids swim. Yeah, you know, they were like two and four, yeah. And he was there, I think he was off to play squash or something. And I was like, Oh, did you know Martin's Martin Smith left? I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. We should talk. I was like, Yeah, you know, you don't know when you're gonna kind of bump into someone. Of course. Um, but yeah, it was a that was an important meeting, but came back and they'd done very well as a business. Yeah, um, they'd really pushed forward. Um, I felt there was still things that I could bring to the business, but there was a lot of people I knew, um, people I'd helped to train to start off with, um, that were doing very well. Yeah. Um, and the business was in a good position. Unfortunately, it was uh October 2008, so it was just about to uh not be in such a good position because the credit crunch came and wiped out half our contracts.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

I was gonna say, did that were you exposed? I mean, everyone was exposed to that, but I mean it's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

I it was you know, uh yeah, you lose half your contractors, yeah. You know, you have to you have to take strict measures straight away.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

And um and and I've had this conversation with a lot of people um about sensing when the wind is changing, being bold, yeah, being decisive, going going once and going hard rather than doing like you know, rather than doing it in uh you know on reflection. Do you do you have any um any enduring memories from your own strategic steps in that period?

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Well, I mean I was quite new back into the business, so it was kind of happening live as I almost as it was I almost felt it was my fault really because I walked in the door and everything went wrong. So um I I've learnt a lot during that period because firstly um it is possible to cut your cloth. Yeah, you know, you you you think I need all these things, yeah, like these trappings and all these people, yeah. But just trappings, you know, the things you do, yeah, but you don't need them, yeah, really. So you have to look very, very closely at everything to kind of keep your business going. Yeah, I've seen this happen a few times, you know, COVID's the same. You know, you just you have to understand that it is possible to do this if you need to do this, um, and to make, like you said, those those tough decisions and be bold. Um, and I think that's where having a great culture, having great people around you, people that believe in the business, yeah, like you do, passion, comes in really strong because these bad times will come. Yes. And if you are surrounded by people that don't believe, that aren't brought into the story, that don't care as much, then you're gonna struggle. Yeah. Because most people will like some people love it. Like, I love it when it's hard, you know, because it's like, right, come on, yeah, this is it. Like, yeah, let's circle the wagons, let's build this crisis. Um, and it makes you feel alive. Yeah, you know, it makes you feel like, you know, this is I'm the leader, I'm doing these things, but you need great people around you. And I've I've found in that point and other crises we've had along the way, economic stuff, that we've always had great people around us in GCS, yeah, that want to put the extra effort in.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

And and so you so you return in just before 08, and that was 18 years ago. And and and a lot has then happened in that time. So so let's let's let's focus on that a bit more. Um so we'll we'll we'll break it into parts. I guess let's focus up to your MBO in 2017 and then beyond that. Yeah. So between 08 and 17, you've you've returned to the business, you are what second in command now? Yeah. MB or some description. Was the CEO was it always evident that the CEO was looking for some kind of exit at some point?

SPEAKER_02 34:05

We talked about it, you know. I think um he's he wanted to facilitate an exit at some point in the future, and I wanted to help him facilitate that exit because, as I said, very passionate about GCS, um, very passionate about growing the business, but also at some point getting my shot to run it, if you know what I mean. So that was always the plan. Um the credit crunch hurt us kind of financially, so we had to spend about four or five years kind of digging ourselves out of the uh, you know, in terms of you know, debts we kind of built up, different kind of financial elements, that sort of thing. So we had to kind of cut our cloth accordingly. Um but you know, the market did grow back. The funny thing about the credit crunch is like it was like a mad drop and then but quite a quick comeback. Yeah, you know, it was like terrible. Oh no, so it's not so bad again. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

You know, whereas there was a bit of a weird double dip there, wasn't there? Yeah, because it came back and then it died again in 2012. I remember thinking, maybe it's it's uh you know, part, but we've just everyone was just about getting back on their feet, and then it got really hard again. Oh my god. But it was it was a truly brutal moment.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

It was it was really brutal.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Um I think unforeseen as well, a bit like COVID.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

Yeah, yeah. I thought I've yeah, unless you like when you see all the big short films and all that sort of stuff. Some clever people somewhere knew what was going on, but some very very stupid people were just playing on regardless. So I think that we we worked hard to rebuild the business um to to get it back where we had a really good strong structure of people, yeah. Um that um and then we started to think about expansion, so we moved into Ireland, we opened up our kind of US office, yeah. Uh the first one in New York, um, we were doing more stuff in Europe, so these are all learning processes, um, trying to focus within kind of fast-growing, high-tech, innovative worlds, you know, um, industries as well, and you know, we're doing very well working for some big companies and big clients. Um, and I think that you know, what we were working towards was always some sort of exit, some sort of MBO. Yeah. Um, what I learned along the way with that is that the timing has to be really right, yeah. You know, and I and I've seen this in the secondary kind of phase working towards turns. Everything's got to go your way, yeah. In terms of everyone's desire, the price, the timing, um, the team that you've got, due diligence, etc. etc. And you know, we found a great partner engage. Um, and interestingly, I'd spoken to Hamilton Bradshaw a few years before, so it's kind of how I knew them. Yeah. Um, and everything was right. You know, that due diligence, that MBO process, you know, joining a private equity business is really, really, it's a it's a it's a tough thing. It's one of the hardest things I have done in terms of making sure your ducks are in line. You know, you talk about feeling alive. I think at one point, you know, it kind of fell through. Yeah, yeah. And then I was like, high stakes at the time. I said to Tim Cook, like, this is I love this. This is I actually feel alive. Yeah, yeah. And then we managed to work it out. Yeah. The things that I really like understand, like for people listening to this, the key things that you have to know, and I still know this in the private equity world, is number one, you have to be profitable, you know, you have to think about profit. How am I gonna make profit out of this business? It's you know, and you have to show this is how this business can be profitable. Yeah, and if you don't know how to do that, you know, you're basically a lifestyle business, yeah, it won't work. Yeah, so you have to show that. And the other thing is you have to be good at forecasting your numbers, you have to understand your numbers, and this still counts now in the world that I'm in, you know. What I what I never really thought about is in a world that's not this, when someone says what's your number going to be in three months' time, you don't really care. Yeah, it doesn't really matter, does it? You know, it's like it doesn't matter, but in our world and in a due diligence situation, you have to know what your numbers will be to within five percent, and you can't get it wrong.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Yeah, yeah. Because the diligence process And it's really bad if you do well, yeah, and the thing is they you know, there is a there is something deliberate about the length of the diligence process because they're monitoring. Because I know what he's doing and his team. Exactly. You know, can he tell us what's going to happen in three months' time and be accurate? Yeah, and and I remember we we were we were raising some money from from another another period in my life, and it took us nearly eight months to do the deal. Yeah, and and obviously it was deliberately going slow because they want to get a good look at you, you know, they want to see whether what you told them in February is actually true in August, you know, and you're thinking, God, we're so close here, but we need the numbers to come in, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

Yeah, because they're putting a lot of money behind you, yeah, you know, and they're they're investing in you as a person and your team as a person, you know, and and you have to show that you know it. So I think that's something I definitely learned within this process. And like I said, the timing was just timing was right, all the boxes were ticked, and then we're on to this other side where we're part of engaged.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Yeah, so so let's talk about that because you you've done an MBO. So for the uninitiated out there, um MBO is a management buyer, yeah. It's probably the most straightforward type of deal, yeah, because it's fundamentally debt-driven. Yeah. Um, and then the lender could be a bank, it could be a an a company, yeah, it could be uh other financial sources. Um, and uh and I'm not an expert here, so chip in at any point, but you are essentially lending against the profitability of the business, yeah. Normally on a multiple of the profitability. Um the business then takes on some debt, yeah. That debt's repaid over a period of time. Yeah, but obviously the quid pro quo is you as the surviving founder owner closer to uh you know a chunk of the company, um, and and or is that is that a fairly basically there's a the price for the exit of the original founder.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

I obviously didn't have that amount of money, so I needed a backer. Yeah, um, we spoke to banks, uh, we spoke to smaller lenders, that sort of thing. Yeah, the reason why I really liked engage, and we talked to private equity companies, there was real interest there. The reason why I really liked Engage was it was a private equity company fronted by people that really understood recruitment. Right. Okay. So I felt that not only could I get the money here, yeah, I could learn a lot. Yeah. And and work with people that had run Hayes, that had set up Comensura, that had run Impellum, yeah, you know, proper big business people within my industry. So when you're sat with them, you're not sat to a bank saying, What's going on with profit? You know, why why is your forecast 35% off? Yeah. You've got people to say, Why is your forecast 35% off? What can we do to help you to get your forecast back on track? Yeah. You know, and that's how you know, even now to this day, like I'm I'm very happy I made that decision. Yeah. Because yeah, the the fundamentals work in that way. Yeah. But I think if you just do it with a bank or just do it with a private equity company, um, you don't get that extra added value.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Yeah. And and so, and so you join the engaged family. Yep. Tell us a bit about engaged as an organization.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

Well, it's been very successful. Yeah. You know, I think it's uh seen as one of the fastest growing groups, recruitment groups. Yeah. Certainly one of the most profitable in in the industry. Um, I think there's like 26, 27 brands within it now. Right. So it's a kind of a grouping of different brands. Yeah. Um they are in 21 different countries now. Um and we've got about 1,500 people that work for Engage. Um one of the things that I think is really, really interesting is when I say we've got 100 people, they are all recruiters. So it's a shared service model. Yeah. So I don't I do actually that's not true because I do worry about these things all the time. But we've got shared service models for HR, marketing, yeah, you know, operations, which is part of the appeal, I guess, right? Part that I haven't got to worry about. I haven't got to worry about these things. Obviously, on a day-to-day basis, CEO, as many of your listeners will know, you can't just ignore it because in the end, cash is king, and yeah, yeah, you've got to make sure the contracts get paid, etc. etc. But I can focus on building my business, building my clients, building my accounts, etc. etc. And I think that's one of the key values of engage, as well as the other stuff that we talked about. Um, but yeah, it's um so that shared service model backs a number of brands. Yeah, all the brands go into market as independent, as individuals. They're all specialist brands within certain core areas. The company works quite hard to keep all the CEOs, you know, communicating, working together, you know, when different compliance stuff rolls out, etc. etc. That they're always there to form us into a kind of senior management team. Yeah, but you are given the ability to, and one of their key pitches is you run your own business. Yeah, we don't run your business for you. We believe that you are the person that can make that decision. decision yeah about your business right um and I've I've found that I mean this is obviously the picture that I was given in this is where we we should buy you but I've found that's bit to be the case yeah that's why I really like it.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

Because I guess I guess there is a there's an alternative reality there isn't there where they become a meddling, interfering, know it all oh well actually you know we know better than you so we'll tell you what to do rather whereas I don't know HSBC are your backer and they're like look pay your pays your money every month and we're not bothering that type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

So so I guess for you it it is about taking a leap of faith that the people you're about to get in bed with are long-term reliable trustworthy partners and it sounds like that's cool concept yeah 100% and we've been through like since 2017 as you said like you know COVID technology war we've been through a lot and they've been great you know and I I'm not not well I am saying this because I'm part of the brand but you know it's been a really a tough journey but a good journey yeah and I think that it wouldn't have been so successful for GCS without us being on the kind of the engaged side.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

And I guess you know to that extent the the the the point is you know when you are navigating the ships through some uncharted waters and COVID was definitely an uncharted waters that you've got the you've got other people to talk to about it right and and and share the share the woes and I have like spoken to other CEOs you know who haven't had that group piece and I do think that loneliness as it were is is quite a quite a tough thing. Well I think it's it's maybe the worst part about the job right is that ultimately it's all on you. And your job and you know I I ex you know is that you've got to you just got to turn up and put on a brave face every day and not transmit any of that anxiety to the group to the team because they need you to look like you've got it all under lock under control.

SPEAKER_04 45:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

And so I think having a sort of a place where you can go and be candy with people and say I haven't got a clue what to do here. Yeah you know should I fire everyone or or or not? You know what do you reckon? Um you know which is you know which is which is hard. So yeah I totally get that. So so you're part of engage the business is growing it's becoming more sophisticated. Yeah at this point how big are you turnover headcount wise? Let's call it like late late early late teens so let's say 2018 19 before COVID.

SPEAKER_02 46:24

Yeah yeah so I think you know I I would say probably we are about the same size pre-COVID as we are post-COVID so which is I think about take a lot actually we probably got to our highest level um kind of post-COVID with real chaos like lots and lots of permanent like most probably our our revenue kind of grew to let's say 80 million turnover and we're probably up to about 150 kind of workers that sort of thing so um yeah I would I would say it's kind of the you talked about the ups and downs like we're on the kind of we're back onto a steady up now I think.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

Yeah yeah I think that's probably fair and and it was a sort of peculiar time between March between December 2020 and November 2022 yeah it was 23 months of just like printing money.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

That was great and then the end of the world yeah yeah yeah um well because obviously you know the the huge driver as it were from COVID and we're still living in that world now but the huge driver to say everything's going to be online cloud you know virtual and that was really great for us because everything was driven towards that. Yeah um and I do see some of that within AI now that everything's going to be AI it's like the dot-com boom that sort of thing you can kind of see it but I think well we talk about AI a bit more but I think it's slightly different but yeah we good times and you've got to as a as a leader you've got to you know drive those good times yeah you know when you when you're when you're in a good position when you can see good revenue opportunities you've got to know that won't last yeah so you've got to keep driving it as hard as you can like you almost got to work harder in the good times I've heard that on another podcast harder in the good times than you do in the bad times in some ways. Yeah yeah because you've got to make sure that you make the most of it but also you've got to see when the wind is changing and know that you know you need to to cut your cloth and make sure that you remain profitable remain functioning yeah a lot of my kind of you know companies that I kind of grew up with other ones have kind of gone to the wayside you know been sold for a pound that sort of thing. So I I you know I've seen I've seen it happen too there's been a lot of kind of people kind of falling away along the way so so for me be be realistic when the times are good work hard but also know that it's never going to last forever.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

Yeah and you you mentioned about sort of evolving some of your solutions so GCS consulting services I think you yeah project solutions um are you trying to evolve your revenue split so that you are possibly less reliant on permanent staffing uh you know for a bit of protection in the in the slightly you know more unpredictable times we have done that a lot you know so I would say in that 2022 we're probably 50-50 contracts perm.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

Yeah and now we're 95 contracts perm. Okay. Right so we've really really focused in to work with corporate clients enterprise level trying to supply as many contractors to them as we possibly can in a kind of delivery account manager corporate expansion solution. So that's been really really successful for us and we're really kind of going forward in a really exciting way with some amazing clients and companies yeah um but sometimes I'm surprised we are dealing with I'm like wow go deal with Amazon that's great yeah yeah you know who would have thought it yeah um but they are investing so much in talent and in all different ways so and there's so many different pockets of areas where they're you know investing yeah yeah I think the thing we see and this is something I really do see is that to go back to 96 where it was like so simple I could pick up a phone I could make a call someone would give me a job I would find a candidate I'd fill it you know that was great but I think the world has turned so much now that we're talking about value we're talking about how we can you know help companies with outcomes how we can really you know provide great value yeah you know we're not a grudge purchase we're actually a really strong influential and important partner to our clients um and this is something that's kind of come about as we've moved towards this kind of contract element I think we're doing it quite haphazardly before but now we know that if we if we talk to clients in a certain way if we work with partners in a certain way we can create a kind of an ecosystem of of more of a consultancy company and that's where I think quite a lot of our kind of you know other similar companies are going and we see a lot of you know importance in it and I talk about always learning you know this is this is learning for me. Yeah it's it's great to understand this um and uh you see the successes in it and some really successful things that we've got going on.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

Yeah and and that move towards 95% contract five percent perm two questions about that number one like are you leaving are you leaving perm food on the table there actively because you you don't want you you're making a deliberate choice not to focus on it.

SPEAKER_02 52:03

Well we've all at GCS we've never dual desked right so dual deck what we mean by dual desking is um you're never going to build up a contract base if you're also doing a bit of perm right I I know that for a fact so we've always tried to keep them separate um what I've found over many many years is that to find a really really strong consistent perm biller it's very rare yeah right so generally you're not making a lot of money out of your perm business but you're making a lot of money out of your contract business. Yeah yeah so I think over the years we've just realized that you know it's just more business better quality business it's just better quality business and if we can focus in on this this is what we do yeah and yes you might be leaving money on the table but also you might not be wasting your time with stuff yeah yeah um that that you can you can progress your business in a much more much more kind of um uh you know way that is more kind of safe and secure and that sort of thing so so yeah that's what we've what's what we've really done but yes I'm I'm sure that there's ai startup companies out there that are giving 200 000 to graduates and paying out 30 000 pound fees and I'm sure that if I said tomorrow yeah we could do that yeah we'd probably do it and it would be great but I know that it's a bubble yeah and you know the other thing is you you got to choose your lane and if you you know if you're too if you try too much you're just gonna be all things or you know try to be all things to all people and achieve you know you know not not much of anything.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

Yeah in terms of that just on the contract piece do you focus much on you call it project solution it's project services I think is there obviously there's a million different names you know employed contractor and and then you've got the American stuff but are you trying to go above and beyond bombs on seats and and and trying to be that kind of you know employer of record and things like that or where where are you at with that?

SPEAKER_02 54:12

We can do that we do the employer because we've got partners and that sort of thing. So that there's what what I think we're trying to do with this and and what we're talking to clients about is that we take uh accountability and responsibility for the outcome. You're right okay this is the difference I see in this type of business um and this is again I talk about learning so you and I if we place a contractor or place a permanent person in the past um and we still do this a lot so it's not the only way what I've realized is we don't really care how it goes now that might be a really bad thing to say and maybe you did when you were a recruiter really care how it went right now and obviously you do care because obviously you want extension you don't want the rebate to come in and but one there's not a lot we can do to make it good or bad yeah and two if they turn up on the day yeah we've kind of done our job yeah you know and that's what I was going to do they turn do deals yeah do deals and I'm gonna go on to the next one but when you think about how that kind of works with the clients that's why we're a grudge purchase it's like well what what have you what have you done yeah yeah yeah you sent me a C V and now I'm I've paid you 20 grand what what have you done yeah yeah whereas in this world accountability and responsibility is there is a I I'm going to help this outcome to happen but I'm gonna take accountability for this I'm gonna find the people I'm gonna put put forward the solution you're gonna agree with that we're gonna work together to to build it but it's you know it's my name on the door to make sure this is success and you realize that's why you can get bigger margins that's why you can get yeah whole different element of why people want to work with you and while they'll why they see you as a trusted partner. Yeah and even from really focusing on it from the last 12 months and sometimes you talk to people and they say no I don't need that but I will need some some contract resource thank you and you can kind of do that as well but if you go in at that level yeah you've got a better chance of them talking to you at a level and respecting you at that level I I I remember from the early part of my career going into a large bank who shall remain nameless yeah for litigation purposes.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

But you know and it was it was an RPO so they'd outsourced their staffing technology staff into an RPO household name and they basically were like right you've placed 37 people you are sixth on the list at 12 and we want you to be three so what are you going to do next quarter we need you to place 45 people and you sort of think were any of them any good? Does that matter? Was it you know who you know yeah are you judging the 37 people based on you did 60 I did 37 my 37 were brilliant exactly my seven they're all then your top performance you know and so what was really clear is that there was there was no and I'm su maybe the world's changed now but there was no relationship between whether we were placing world class people or just that you know did half the people get performance managed out or whatever. And and actually if I'm honest I found that probably the most dispiriting part of my career which was it really was just like pure transactions. And the incentive was almost look if you don't get 45 people if you don't get 45 bombs on seats you you know you're going to be kind of in the in the relegation zone. So it's how many CVs you send you know what I mean and in the end it was like just all a bit it was quite a miserable existence and and and again the the you know to to to echo your point I think the great thing about that is you become when you're closer to the outcome you take a huge amount more pride and care and finding the right people whereas frankly we in the end were just like even if he's crap get sending him down there they'll probably take him and we've got to get 45 anyway and they don't seem to care whether they're any good so I I think as in terms of taking joy getting some joy from the job that was not a recipe for it.

SPEAKER_02 58:30

Yeah and and I think you know what you're always trying to do within recruitment running a business you're always trying to build relationships aren't you that that that you can be involved with that you feel that that the client wants to take you on a journey as well and what I've seen is this is a great way of of doing that you know you're much more involved you're much more accountable yeah uh for what they're doing and I think this is for me this is a great way forward for our business yeah but I think it's a great way forward for the industry you know yeah consultancies we know charge you know put you know three times four times five ten times on top of what we supply to them yeah because they've got a logo that's it you know and and I think we we can we we know the values that we can provide we know the what what we are and how close we are to our networks and our industries and I think we can provide real great value to to our clients yeah you know and and and exactly that and I think I think certainly and this is no disrespect to the great consultancies that are out there but but what they're just better at is is packaging their solution in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 59:43

We're locked in this bucket that says eight percent above the door and they're charging three K a day for a graduate and I'm going how's that work you know this they pay us 8% exactly about 8% and and I see that like the smartest customers that we work with they're all you know and I'm gonna plug my own technology a bit here but you know they're using the data that they can that they find and and there it's allowing them to change the language that they're using with their customers with confidence and and it is all about the language that we use. And if you've spent too long in recruitment you become addicted to these words like PSL and margin that they're instantly out you as a as a sort of candidate to be to be stuck away in a bucket whereas you if you're Deloitte or EY or even a sort of mid-market um consulting business you just go in there with your head held high and demand you know demand the prices that and win the business on that basis.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

And that links into like we just said accountability there. You know we are you know the reason why we're getting more money as it were is because we are taking accountability and I think that's what's so important.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:59

And sharing some of the risk which I think is which I think is which I think inevitably gives you more skin in the game and and and it and enhances everybody's everybody's um likelihood of success. On the due diligence side now we just have to make sure we don't take too much risk yeah well there is that there is that I'm sure there's pros and cons to every time there's there's there's there's somebody in engage group somewhere that's thinking what on earth are we doing in it? So I'm I'm conscious of time but but the there's two things I'd like to end on. The first is really your relationship with AI as an organisation. Yeah. What do you what are you doing? How are you doing that? What do you see the future looks like and and then the second thing is is really what's next so we'll we'll I guess we'll we'll answer the the questions in order. So everybody says the same thing. Oh AI what do you do with AI? So so I'd love to hear about your your worldview on that.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:50

Well I love technology and I I've as even as a recruiter I was always very into the systems and how it can help me be more successful more productive so for me AI probably is well I always think the iPhone was pretty amazing and I bought one on the first day it came out but I think AI must be the most amazing technology I've seen and I've seen quite a few in my times internet email blah blah blah I mean it is insane what it can do. Yeah um I do a lot like I said these podcasts I do a lot of podcasts with people talking about AI and leaders series and stuff like that we do so the thing that's most kind of talk to me about is it's it's always it's kind of highly underestimated and dreadfully overestimated. So it can do some amazing things but it can also not do things we really want it to do. Yeah yeah so I don't think I don't think it can change it can't take over what we do. What I'm really really impressed by within Engage is that we have and I've seen lots of software but we've in we've developed some really great tools within our group again another good thing to have these kind of shared services which are really helping us to to do some really really interesting things with auto matching auto searching you know building a kind of project kind of details you know engage AI searches that sort of thing so there's a lot of really interesting things and I want to use it more and more I want it to become integral embedded within our business maybe that will mean that we'll spend less money on LinkedIn maybe that will mean that we need less kind of you know delivery horsepower that sort of thing because we can automate some more of those tasks but what I want it to make us be is much more productive. Yeah. So Tim Cook who's the leader engage who's on some session is a very Tim Cook thing he said for so is this going to basically mean that we can all go home on Friday or does this mean that we're gonna be able to do double the amount of work obviously being the chairman of a massive group he's gonna be like can we do but we don't have to do double the amount of work to do double the amount of work we can be more productive. So for me I want AI to help us as a business do more of the fun stuff yes the game right the things you were talking about matching building rapport taking accountability talking to clients understanding qualifying etc etc you know yeah and I think that there's so many things that AI can help us to do yeah the interesting thing that I find is as with all new technologies but particularly AI it's very very hard to bring people along with you on the journey like I'm a real I I'm a techie geek right as soon as I see it I'm like wow I love that use that this is brilliant look at this guys yeah yeah um there's a lot of people out there that are not like me yeah not ready they're not ready they're not ready they're not ready for the uh for the change so it's a journey as all these things are um I think that for anyone listening and I think it's really important to get your kind of super users around you I think it's very important to leave from the front um I think it's really important to see what it does well and what it how it can be improved um I also think like I I wouldn't be spending huge amounts of money on these great AI pieces of software so I'm using AI tools that are developed for me within my group but if I was spending tens of 20s and 30s of money on this I would want to know that everyone was going to use it before I did because you're otherwise just pouring money down the drain. Yeah so that would be my worry you know for someone because you get bombarded with all these software tools all the time I'm sure that River is is is not like that it's one of the best ones do you know but but you get bombarded on LinkedIn all the time this I think will make your business And I I don't think anyone's got a blank check at the moment. So I'd be very, very cautious as a leader not to just start spending money hand over fist unless you knew that your team were absolutely locked into using it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:14

And behind it. Yeah, yeah. And and then finally, um looking to the future. You will be not far off 10 years into your engaged journey. Yeah. And you can share as much or as little as you as you like, but how do they ensure that you stay motivated, you know, for an exit one day and all that kind of stuff? Yeah, I mean, I think are there ways to do that?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:39

Well, I'm motivated as an equity holder within the business, motivated because obviously I I love the business, both of the businesses really, GCS and engagement. Yeah. Um, but we're working towards a turn, you know, we're working towards, you know, finding an event, you know, moving towards having kind of new backers, taking the next step forward in our journey as a company. And I find that really, really exciting. And I know my team do too.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:05

So and do you sorry to cut crossing, do you get to enjoy the upside of because there's an arbitrage thing, right? Where you're you're you'll you will get a higher multiple as part of a wider group than you will on your own.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:16

100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:17

So that's part of the appeal of being part of the engaged group, is that correct? Yes, right. Okay. So not only are you more likely to get an event, you're more likely to get an event at a premium multiple. Less hopeful. And so, and so you're you're arguably you know better off both sides there.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:32

I I feel we're in a really good position. There's a good business, one run well. Um, we're bringing new companies into the business, like they just acquired Opus, very similar business to GCS. Yeah. Um, and that that's worked very well, they've integrated really well into the business because we all run in our own individual silos. It's not like I'm how the hell have you just bought Opus? What's going on? Yeah, you know, you know, they're they're great guys, and we've done a bit of collaboration with them, but that's just made the business stronger, I think. Um, so yeah, everything that you said is is the way we see kind of moving forward. Yeah, what we have to do is make sure we're profitable, make sure we don't make any stupid decisions, make sure we're growing, and make sure, hopefully, yeah, like you said, like things like integrating new technologies and developing new kind of revenue streams, those are the things when you talk about multiple, those are the things that investors will look at and think, ah, they're really doing a profitable company, they're well run, but also they're doing interesting things. That's what we've got to keep doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:35

Well, on that note, um, I think that is a a tidy place to uh to bring it to an end. Uh, David Bloxham, mayor of Bloxham in Oxfordshire. Well, the Lord Mayor of Bloxham, thank you so much for joining me, and um, I hope to do it again soon.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:49

Thank you very much, Sandy.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:49

Cheers, thank you. Before we wrap up, a quick thank you to the team behind this episode. This episode was proudly produced by Vertical Drop. At Vertical Drop, we help founders, leaders, and businesses turn conversations into content that builds authority, creates opportunities, and drives growth. From podcast strategy and production to social content, guest management and distribution, we handle everything required to help great voices reach the audiences that matter most. If you're thinking about launching a podcast, elevating an existing show, or building a stronger personal or company brand through content, then we'd love to help. Visit vertical drop.com to learn more. That's vertical drop.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:41

Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week.